norfolk flyer 208 Report post Posted November 18, 2012 All, I've just place 2 photo's in my gallery (trev's zebs, waiting for clearance). These 2 male zeb's are from the same parents from my shed, ones a BC and the other is BFBC both these zeb's have 90% black flank markings which is good. Now as one is part BF, whats the chance of getting a BF with black flanks ? I've heard that you cannot get a BF with black flanks, is this true or not ? From my thoughts as i've got BFBC with black flanks surely it's part of the way to getting a BF with these markings. If anyone can answer this especially why a BF cannot have black flanks if this is the case i would be most interested. Thanks in advance, Trevor Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulm 119 Report post Posted November 18, 2012 Hi Trev I wouldn't say its impossible as the colour pigments needed are there and apart of the zebra finches colour range but i haven't seen one like this myself,i would be interested in hearing from our continental friends as they may know better. Paul. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dimitri 1 Report post Posted November 19, 2012 Hi Trev I'm not sure I got it right, you want to breed a BF with black flanks? (without BC involved?) BC turns pheomelanine markings (orange/chestnut) into eumelanine (black), and infacts BCs have black cheek patches and black flanks. BF instead has a different action, since it only adds black eumelanine in the lores and in the belly, but doesn't affect at all the pheomelanine in the markings. So you can get a black flanked zebra only if BC is involved (and the cheeks will be black as well). ciao Dimitri Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norfolk flyer 208 Report post Posted November 19, 2012 Dimitri, Thank you for explaning that, you have got it right and your explanation is very clear. I've understood 100%. All the best, Trevor Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulm 119 Report post Posted November 19, 2012 Hi But we also know that some BC are bred with chestnut flank markings so it could be possible for the reverse to happen in Bf and birds with black flank to be bred. Paul. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dimitri 1 Report post Posted November 19, 2012 Wow 100% is great! never had hoped for such an excellent result ciao Dimitri Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dimitri 1 Report post Posted November 19, 2012 Hi Paul, the reverse is not possible, because they are different mutations with different actions. BCs with chestnut flanks are just defective, pheomelanine is converted into eumelanine but in poor specimens it often works only partially, the action of the mutation must be supported and enhanced through selection. The chestnut flank of a blackface can't become black neither with the aid of selection, since BF gene doesn't do that conversion, pheomelanine markings remain untouched just like normals. ciao Dimitri Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulm 119 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 Hi Dimitri Cheers for your valued input, i'm not so sure it is impossible to get black flanks in BF as although it is not now a factor of this mutation that doesn't mean that by some random chance this could not change, dont forget these random genetic occurances are where most of today mutations appear from in the first place, i believe most out comes are possible and the only limiting factor is infact the the colour factors found in the bird its self, for instance you would never be able to produce a yellow zebra finch because of the the lack of Lipochrome which is reponcible for this colour but zebra finches already have the Melanins need to produce a almost unlimited range of out comes with in this black, orange colour scale, a further example of this is the difference of the Australian mutations in comparison to our own. Just my thoughts on a very intresting topic. Paul. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norfolk flyer 208 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 Paul / Dimitri, Here are two breedings (not mine):- BFBC x BFBC 50% Black face (SF) Black cheeked 25% Black cheeked 25% Black face (DF) Black cheeked BF x BFBC 50% Black face (SF) /Black cheeked 25% Normal/Black cheeked 25% Black face (DF) /Black cheeked Out of these two breedings i find that the BC is stronger, look at the 1st pair BF does not come through on its own only with BC, but BF is dominant and i would have thought being dominant it would be stronger and come through singley. 2nd Pairing there's 2 BF against 1 BC and because the scales are tipped in favour of the BF it comes through singley, so would a DF BF on pairing no.2 stand more chance of getting black flanks? Back to you Paul and Dimitri. Trevor Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulm 119 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 Hi Trev I think i follow your question One thing you are as far as current theory say unable to produce Df dominant mutation birds and the Bf in pair one would not be able to come through on it own as both the parent birds are also Bc so all the chicks will be visual Bc as well Hope this helps Paul. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dimitri 1 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 Cheers for your valued input, i'm not so sure it is impossible to get black flanks in BF as although it is not now a factor of this mutation that doesn't mean that by some random chance this could not change, dont forget these random genetic occurances are where most of today mutations appear from in the first place, i believe most out comes are possible and the only limiting factor is infact the the colour factors found in the bird its self, for instance you would never be able to produce a yellow zebra finch because of the the lack of Lipochrome which is reponcible for this colour but zebra finches already have the Melanins need to produce a almost unlimited range of out comes with in this black, orange colour scale, a further example of this is the difference of the Australian mutations in comparison to our own. Hi Paul, I can't say you are wrong, random genetic events could give birth to a totally black, half black/half orange, or totally striped zf, immagination can run free here. However, if and when a black flanked BF would arise, it will be no more a BF, but rather a new mutation. Of course anything might happen in the future, who knows, but sadly we can't say for sure if, when, where and how it could happen. I guess (am I wrong?) Trevor was trying to understand which kind of birds should be best paired up in order to produce a black flanked BF, and not trying to understand if a black flanked BF could ever appear by chance in the next 50 years or so. That's why my answer is, for what we know today, "genetically" speaking, there's no mating scheme or selection trick to produce a black flanked BF. some pics from past seasons, Paul perhaps you still remember some of these on the (dead) international forum BFBC cock These BFs are all split BC, see the flanks... BF/BC hen and the mossst blackessst BFBC on earth ciao Dimitri Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulm 119 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 Hi Dimitri Your right in what you say there are as far as we know no current Black flanked Bf's i've seen them with out flank spots but still chestnut to brown in colour. Trev Blackface is a Dominant mutation but that doesn't change the way it works in combination with any other mutations present in the Blackfaced bird I.e if you pair a BFBC X BFBC the offspring will be from a mathematical point of view BF and None BF but they will all be visual BC because of the way the recessive BC mutation works and this remains unchanged by the presents of Bf. The combination of multiple mutations does not affect the manner of there inheritance. Paul. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norfolk flyer 208 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 Dimitri, Thanks for showing the pic's, the 4th one blackest on earth, what a lovely bird i like him a lot 10/10 for that. Your others not bad either, really good birds, Thank you! Trevor Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulm 119 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 Hi Dimitri It was a real shame about the international forum it was a great source of infomation in the continental birds. Paul. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dimitri 1 Report post Posted November 20, 2012 Yes it's a pity, it was a nice hot spot. I don't know if I can put a link here, but if you go to the Italian zf club homepage you can find several photogalleries with good pics of continental (Italian) birds. ciao Dimitri Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam 2 Report post Posted November 21, 2012 hi Dimitri nice bcbf ! as you mentioned, it doesn't exist black flanked zf but i've see some normal with very darkbrown side, perhaps with selection dark flanked zf can be obtained but for a black flanked zf we'll wait for a new mutation ! Sam Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skm 5 Report post Posted November 28, 2012 Hi Dimitri Is it possible to identify if: - a BF is a split to BC - a BF is a split to BB - a BC is a split to BB If yes, please guide as to how? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norfolk flyer 208 Report post Posted November 28, 2012 skm, Sorry to but in but on the males of the types you have mentioned the flank markings are oval shaped and not round spots. If you go to efinch the website there are photographic examples on the Blackbreasted section. Hope this helps you! Trevor Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dimitri 1 Report post Posted November 29, 2012 Hi skm as Trevor said, splits BB cocks can show oval shaped flank spots, then sometimes also the cheek patch can be slightly enlarged, in both sexes the tail blocks can be somewhat "irregular" and the tear marks can be thinner than normal. As regards split BC, the tear mark can run a bit into the cheek area, you can see it on efinch too in the bc section. But keep in mind that sometimes split are detectable and sometimes they are not. ciao Dimar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
