Flank Colouring

[Peter Finn 0]

Hi there,I was wondering if anyone could give me an answer about a question that I have regarding the flank colouring of Black-Cheek Zebras?I know that the Black-Cheek should have black and white spotted flanks,but some birds(cocks obviously)can have the reddish colouring of the Normal in the flanks;I realise that this is a fault,and was wondering how easy it is to breed this out.I have a decent Black-Cheek cock,with some red/chestnut colouring to his flanks,and a Black-Cheek sister to this bird;I also have a lesser quality Black-Cheek cock,but with the correct Black and white spotting to his flanks,and a Black-Cheek sister of his too.I am planning to outcross these birds to Normals anyway,simply to add size and type,but was wondering whether I should exclude the birds with the faulty flank colouring from the breeding programme,or whether it will correct itself when outcrossed to Normals?Anyone out there any ideas/experience of this with their Black-Cheek breeding? Thanks.

[norfolk flyer 208]

Peter, Lets call the BC male with black flanks 1, his sister 2, the other male 3 and his sister 4.In my own oppinion, i would pair no.1 with a grey hen. This would then give you 100% BC's black sided splits.The other bird no.2, i would put to grey as well you would then have 100% split BC's to use.The young from grey x no.2 and no.1 x grey would be ideal to put back together, this then would bring you the black side out. This would give you 50% grey/BC, 25% BC and 25% grey.I would only use the young males from pairing no.3 x grey and grey x no.4, cos you would be certain of seeing the black sided birds.Hope this helps,Trevor

[Peter Finn 0]

Peter, Lets call the BC male with black flanks 1, his sister 2, the other male 3 and his sister 4.In my own oppinion, i would pair no.1 with a grey hen. This would then give you 100% BC's black sided splits.The other bird no.2, i would put to grey as well you would then have 100% split BC's to use.The young from grey x no.2 and no.1 x grey would be ideal to put back together, this then would bring you the black side out. This would give you 50% grey/BC, 25% BC and 25% grey.I would only use the young males from pairing no.3 x grey and grey x no.4, cos you would be certain of seeing the black sided birds.Hope this helps,Trevor

Hi Trevor,thanks for that...so you advise pairing all of them to Normals,I get that...what I'm a bit confused about,is that the offspring from no.3 X Normal,and no.4 X Normal,will still be splits,so I won't be able to see whether the black flanks are coming through....as they'll all be splits!Am I getting it wrong?I'm sorry,I think I'm getting the last bit muddled!

[Dave.H 11]

Pair to well coloured/ birds normals showing more black pigment Only problem is finding such birds not been tainted by black pigment reducing or diluting mutations Only thing I can suggest is line breeding, between the 2 lots. Pair chicks from pr 1 back to the cock and hen 3 & 4 E.g split x bc and bc x split but be selective of the split chicks choosing the ones showing greater extension of the tears as some get enlarged tears and darker marked tail stripes etc Equally you could pair splits from pairs 3&4 same method but choose best coloured and sized chicks, so you keep type and improve colour to cock 1 and hen 2. Only other possibly way to do it would be cross cock 1 to hen 3 so your striving in both aspects good colour in cocks and type size with hen. In the hope they throw good shaped improved colour birds with reasonable size. But does limit you for pairings to increase numbers and more chances of getting what your after. Other thing could be crossing split x split in hope you'll get a visual blackcheek with both increased size and slightly better colour.

[norfolk flyer 208]

Peter, Sorry for confusion, Dave has put it a bit better than me. What i meant to say is the better marked birds thicker tear mark etc.Your best results would be deffo using pairs 1 & 2 and i would probually keep them in a seperate line to pairs 3 & 4.If by pairing split young from pairs 3 & 4 you do get a good BC then use it later on and gradually omit the ones with the lesser black markings.Might be a bit clearer now ? Trevor

[Peter Finn 0]

Peter, Sorry for confusion, Dave has put it a bit better than me. What i meant to say is the better marked birds thicker tear mark etc.Your best results would be deffo using pairs 1 & 2 and i would probually keep them in a seperate line to pairs 3 & 4.If by pairing split young from pairs 3 & 4 you do get a good BC then use it later on and gradually omit the ones with the lesser black markings.Might be a bit clearer now ? Trevor

Yeah,I've got it now!Thanks!!The Black-Cheek is such an attractive mutation in my opinion,hopefully I can improve the type and size in the birds that I've got!I'm expecting it to take a while,but maybe,in a few generations,I'll get somewhere!At least I have some good Normal cocks to use in this programme....short of good Normal hens,but that's often the case,regardless of what we're trying to breed!I'm going to try to breed a line as free of Fawn as possible,which will hopefully make things easier!!Thanks for your advise...much appreciated!I did get the first bit,it was the last bit,that I didn't quite understand...it never occurred to me that the markings of the teardrops,could be an indication of flank colouring!!I love this challenge...there's so much to learn!The bird genetics are so different to what I'm used to in mammal genetics!!!Cheers,Peter.

[Peter Finn 0]

Pair to well coloured/ birds normals showing more black pigment Only problem is finding such birds not been tainted by black pigment reducing or diluting mutations Only thing I can suggest is line breeding, between the 2 lots. Pair chicks from pr 1 back to the cock and hen 3 & 4 E.g split x bc and bc x split but be selective of the split chicks choosing the ones showing greater extension of the tears as some get enlarged tears and darker marked tail stripes etc Equally you could pair splits from pairs 3&4 same method but choose best coloured and sized chicks, so you keep type and improve colour to cock 1 and hen 2. Only other possibly way to do it would be cross cock 1 to hen 3 so your striving in both aspects good colour in cocks and type size with hen. In the hope they throw good shaped improved colour birds with reasonable size. But does limit you for pairings to increase numbers and more chances of getting what your after. Other thing could be crossing split x split in hope you'll get a visual blackcheek with both increased size and slightly better colour.

Thank you Dave,for taking the time to explain it to me...have you bred Black-Cheeks with this issue before?Fingers crossed,eh!Best Wishes,Peter.

[norfolk flyer 208]

Peter, Appolies for butting in on Daves question, but i've had the same problem with BCCFW's and BFBB they seem to pop out fawn flanks but like you said take time and you can start getting results.Glad to be of help.All the best,Trevor

[dave huntington 94]

i dont know much about non standards so i might be spoutng tripe but,is it not all a bit random and pot luck whether they come out with chestnut flanks or black flanksie black flanked could throw out chestnut flankschestnut flanks can throw black flankslike i say not sure as no expierience with themsorry if ive conffused the topic a bit dave

[mark1e 67]

i dont know much about non standards so i might be spoutng tripe but,is it not all a bit random and pot luck whether they come out with chestnut flanks or black flanksie black flanked could throw out chestnut flankschestnut flanks can throw black flankslike i say not sure as no expierience with themsorry if ive conffused the topic a bit dave

Dave i have been following this thread with interest now you have just thrown spanner in works,now this is how i feel cheers mate,mark

[Dave.H 11]

Touch wood all the ones I've bred have black flanks. Must have a certain degree of parental heritage? On colour of flanking surely. Peter Would you know the parents and grand parents of the bird you have the flank issues with ? Same question to you trev? Did they have parents which altered melanin pigment or grand parents? I cant comment directly but surely genetic makeup can influence consistency of colour? Cheers Dave

[dave huntington 94]

all i would say genetic makeup doesnt stop us producing say dark creams from light creams and heavily pied birds from lightly pied birds ect..although you would hope to produce more of the right type of bird by starting with the right type of birdsdave

[Dave.H 11]

I know breeding can be unpredictableBut for arguements sake if you paired like for like generation after generation You'd hope at least after a couple of generations of consistent pairings that the majority of the offspring will follow suit as their hidden genetics would be closely that of their parents. As 9/10 we are working on visuals or 1 or 2 generations before known and we cannot predict what they carry.

[zebba 'D' 43]

dave h,Alright mate have you any other black cheeks to go. Pm me mate.Chris

[Pete 21]

If your breeding blackcheeks for showing, flank colouring would be the last thing I would worry about. Type, size, head quality would be the most important then you can afford to be picky about colour faults when they are upto standard of the winning birds.

[paulm 119]

I agree with Pete get the type and size then worry about colour faults,i could be wrong here but there were a few Grey cheeks a couple of years ago where the cock bird had chestnut coloured cheeks instead of grey as per the standard,but this colour fault didnt stop them doing very well on the show bench.Paul.

[Peter Finn 0]

all i would say genetic makeup doesnt stop us producing say dark creams from light creams and heavily pied birds from lightly pied birds ect..although you would hope to produce more of the right type of bird by starting with the right type of birdsdaveHi Dave,I think there is a difference between the different variation of shades in a colour,i.e. Fawn,Cream,Silver,and a mutation trait,such as the black flanking that is combined with the Black-Cheek gene.There is an element of variation,in the shade of hair colour in humans,but they would still come under the label of "blond" or "brown".And there is an element of randomness involved,with the Pied gene,where the genes affecting the White and Grey colouring,is switched on and off,during embryonic development-this is certainly the case in a Tortoiseshell cat-they show a vast degree of variation,but in general,there is a mechanism that switches the colouring on and off,in the embryonic phase...obviously genetics can influence,but there is nevertheless an aspect of randomness.There is obviously a linkage between Black-Cheeks and black flanks,otherwise black flanks would have cropped up before in other varieties.I am not necessarily aiming at a Exhibition goal!I want to improve an established mutation....and if ever this variety is to catch the interest of new fanciers,I would personally prefer that variety to be firmly established,as linked with those two features...they are part of the standard.Colour faults are usually more difficult to fix,than type for example.This is the reason I am attempting to fix these characteristics together-they are genetically linked after all!A big typy bird,with black-cheeks,but a chestnut flank,is not going to represent the variety in a "stunning "way,in my opinion.This is what I think anyway.Thanks for your interest in this thread,it's much appreciated,and all discussion is useful!Cheers Peter.

[Peter Finn 0]

Peter, Appolies for butting in on Daves question, but i've had the same problem with BCCFW's and BFBB they seem to pop out fawn flanks but like you said take time and you can start getting results.Glad to be of help.All the best,Trevor

Hi Trevor,I personally think that the reason for difficulties,colour-wise with the BCCFW,is because CFW is a dilution in general(in a similar way that LightBack is...they sit in the same gene position on the chromosome,which is why a hen cannot be split for this variety,and it just so happens that the LightBack mutation is dominant to CFW.But,it is possible to improve the black tear markings on a CFW,and certainly some CFW cocks can be bred to have darker chest bars and cheek-patches,so,with perseverance,it should be possible to improve the black colour in the BCCFW cock.BFBB gives red flanks primarily,but because both BF is variable and BB is variable,in other variety traits-for example,black breast extension in BF,and Orange eye-patch extension in BB,neither mutation are "cut and dried".In Australia,ther in general seem to have concentrated on improving the BF gene,so it now has resulted in the Black Bodied...apparently,it s the same gene!But they have concentrated on colour not type.In UK,w do have typey birds to add into the gene pool,which is not generally the case in Australia,due to the long-standing import ban.

[Pete 21]

If you give colour equal importance to size and type you will never get a big typy bird. But if you select for size and type, when your birds are big and typy some of the blackcheeks will be better coloured than others then would be the time to select for colour. I think type is by far the hardest thing to get right, breeding poor typed well coloured birds i think would be far easier than good typed poor coloured birds.

[dave huntington 94]

i would definatley agree that a bird with black flanks has to be the aim,and they are eyecatching and would say only using these birds has to be the way to more consistancyi have seen birds with both black flanks and chestnut flanks and like i said know very little on subject,do you get siblings with different coloured flanks or is a pairing consistant in its offspringalso can black flanked birds be produced from chestnut flankedi am interested as a few years ago i was talking with someone who bred them shortly after they appeared and at the time it was a bit pot luck what was producedhowever with time and selective breeding hopefully things have become a bit less random and more predictable in what is producedgood luck in your breeding efforts with them and hope you breed a few stunners dave

[Peter Finn 0]

Touch wood all the ones I've bred have black flanks. Must have a certain degree of parental heritage? On colour of flanking surely. Peter Would you know the parents and grand parents of the bird you have the flank issues with ? Same question to you trev? Did they have parents which altered melanin pigment or grand parents? I cant comment directly but surely genetic makeup can influence consistency of colour? Cheers Dave

Unfortunately,an unknown commodity.No idea what the parentage of the well coloured BCs were,but I do know,that the sire of the cock BC with the blak/red flanks was a correctly marked BC,with black flanks,and his dam was a Fawn,split BC of unknown parentage.This could be a contributing factor,use of the Fawn gene;but there are other unknowns involved with this mutation,such as why some BC hens maintain a full Black-Cheek when adult,and others (sisters in some cases),lose this,ending upwith more of a half-moon coloured BC when mature!This is why it's so interesting for me to discuss ideas with other breeders.Between us,it's possibly we know some of the answers!!

[Dave.H 11]

Hi peterDo you still have the poor coloured cocks father? If not no worries but if you have could you try him to a normal bc hen? Or similar that you poss know heritage from? Be interesting if you, myself and any members on here keep a thread going on heritage maybe? Like what pairings we made, what resulted and see if a common occurence takes place when crossing certain colours etcDave

[Peter Finn 0]

Hi peterDo you still have the poor coloured cocks father? If not no worries but if you have could you try him to a normal bc hen? Or similar that you poss know heritage from? Be interesting if you, myself and any members on here keep a thread going on heritage maybe? Like what pairings we made, what resulted and see if a common occurence takes place when crossing certain colours etcDave

No,I don't have this boy's father,he was an old chap(5)and not bred by me anyway.He is a better bird than the other BC cock,and when he arrived,he didn't show this fault.I'm going to use him and his sister anyway,because they're fresh blood and nice birds,and this is what I've got and I make the most of it.I have enough good quality Normals(cocks mainly)to improve the qualities of the various mutations that I have.But the mother of this BC,was a Fawn/BC,that the breeder bought from Stafford.So what her pedigree is I've no idea! I think it would be a good thing to do,to use threads like this....that's the sort of thing where we can learn all from each others experiences.What mutations do you have,or are interested in?Best Wishes.Peter.

[Dave.H 11]

Bc, bf, bb, cfw, fawn, crested, normal and lightback I have plus an odd fawncheek and pied. I have combos of the above most being Crested fawn bc pied and crested lightback bc pied Dave

[norfolk flyer 208]

Dave / Peter, This is just me but i wouldn't put a BC fawn male with a BC grey hen even if he'd got black flanks.I think if you have a BC male with good flanks put him to a grey hen or bring in any BC male on the greyside ie cfw,lightback or you could use BFBC grey combo. My thoughts on this is that it can be bred out with time and patience.Trevor