Black Cheek Black Breasted?

[skm 5]

I want to know if there is a way to distinguish a BB female from BBBC female. I have searched on the net and found that BB gene eats out the black colour in the cheeks of BC female. I have learned from the net that BBBC females do not show the lacing on the flying feathers (BB females have lacing in flying feathers). Can some one confirm is the lacking of lacing in flying feathes the only way to distinguish between a BB and BBBC female. I will be really helpful if some one can post a few pics of BBBC female from front, back and sides.

Best regards

[skm 5]

Jus refreshing the thread.

[mark1e 67]

Hi skm

I wish i could help with your question but i only know about cream & fawn dilutes sorry about this but hold in there hopefully someone very soon will answer your enquiry on BB & BBBC

mark

[paulm 119]

Hi

I would like to help but am not Familiar with this combination all i can say is that i have herd the orange edging on the flight feather of the Black Breast mutation does diminish with the addiction of the Black cheek mutation but have no practical experience of this myself,you have to think that the Black cheek mutation does turn the orange areas Black such as the flanks and cheeks.

Paul.

[skm 5]

Thanks Mark and Paul

I got from the following link that BC reduces / eliminates the light edges of flying feather of BB and looking for confirmation from some one keeping / breeding both BB and BBBC.

http://zebrafinch.info/colours/default.asp?gender=2&language=en

Lets see what others come up with.

Best Regards

[skm 5]

No one is keeping both BB and BBBC

@Mohammad Darwish @HameedD @abo hawra

I believe you people are breeding colours. Can you confirm on this.

[mark1e 67]

Hi skm

Here is a picture of the BBBC by Roy Beckham i have emailed Roy before now and he has always answered my mail so why not give him email he might be able to help,

http://www.efinch.com/birdpix/bbbc.jpg

mark

[paulm 119]

Hi

It would be a good bet in tthe BBBC the tail barring would be as in a Black breast and run the other way but as i say i have no hand on experience of the combination of BB & BC.

Paul.

[norfolk flyer 208]

skm/ Paul,

Somebody could soon start keeping them, could be in the pipeline paul.

Trevor

[skm 5]

Thanks Mark

Good idea. I have sent mail to Roy. Let see what the guru explians.

[Stefan Verhoeven 0]

The difference between a BB and a BBBC female is most of the time not visual.

In most of the BBBC breeding lines, the females show NO black cheek patches. Sometimes those females show a litte amount of black in de feathers of the flank or a litte black in the cheek, but most of the time you only know for sure if a female is BBBC by her parents. Some (I've seen only 5 of those) BBBC females do show black cheek patches. Here is a picture of 1 I had, at that moment an unique bird! And some pictures of females with a litte black in the cheek. But keep in mind normally you cannot recognize the difference between BB and BBBC females!

[norfolk flyer 208]

Stefan,

I find this very interesting, because it's simular results in what i'm trying to achieve with cfw's.

CFW bred with BF, BB and BC some of the combo's the hens are indentical and only can be traced by breeding records.

Also i think i'm right in saying that the male BBBC doesn't have what i call expanded cheek patches.(am i right ?)

So there is something interesting when these two ressessive meet.

Paul: I'm interested in your views please on this matter.

Thanks for posting photo's Stefan.

Trevor

[skm 5]

Stefan

Thansk for the clarificatrion and posting nice pics. You have got nice birds. Are the females in the first and third pic black face too.

Best regards

[Stefan Verhoeven 0]

All of those females are NOT blackface.

@ Trevor: your right that most of the BBBC males don't have extended cheek patches. Some even have no black cheek patches at all and showing only white and grey. There are a few BBBC males with a little amount of extended cheek patches, but it is always less than that of a good BB male. In combination with BF it's a little bit easier to let the cheekpatches extend.

I used to select the BC and BF birds that I used for the BBBC(BF) breeding on too much zebra markings around the cheek patches, it's a big fault in BF and BC show birds, bit ideal if you want to have at least some black around the cheek patches.

[skm 5]

Stefan

The lacing in the flying feathers is almost gone for all the females. Futher, the tail coverts are uni-coloured and there is no vertical black marking on them. Can you possibly compare these features with your BB hens to see if there is any difference.

Best regards

[Stefan Verhoeven 0]

I don't have this color anymore, but in the line I have, and I see it in most other lines, I could tell difference between BBBC without black in the cheek and 'normal' BB females.

When you take a close look at a BB female, most off the time the color of the cheek (normally grey in BB grey females) continues to the end off where normally the tearmark is. It seems to be that the tearmark color is replaced from the normal black markings to the grey color the cheek has. In most of te BBBC females the grey does not continue op to replacing the tearmark. It seems to be that de tearmark is gone and replaced by the color of the triangle between eye, beak and tearmark. So summing up: BBBC females, the black tearmark is replaced by white, in BB females the black tearmark is replaced by grey.

But to make in difficult, BB split BC females tends to be more showing like a BBBC than a BB female, so they also start to be a loss of the tearmark and replacing it for a white color.

Again, this was the general rule in my line, but it is not a 100% guarantee!

The lacing of the flying feathers in the wing (primairy and secondary, and sometimes even the coverts) can be laced. In females it is rare to have lacing, but I think 25% has a lacing, and from that 25%, 20 has normally only a white lacing. I couldn't tell the difference between BBBC and BB females by the lacing of the white. But in about 5% of the cases you can see white with orange lacing in BB females and white with black lacing in BBBC females. Especially the last one is sometimes hard to see because you are looking for a very smal black line in almost totally grey feather. I know for sure that the female on the second picture had some black lacing in the secondaries, but it is not visual on the photo's.

[skm 5]

_{Thanks Stefan}

_{I am a bit confused about a Fawn female that I have purchased as a "OBBB". Since the bird is an imported one, so the seller is unable to offer any help on genetoc side. The said female has black line along with the beak and has unicloloured tail coverts. So, she is not OB at all (as per my knowledge; please confirm).}

_{She is also showing the a light black line in the chest and the cheek patch is waht have explianed for BBBC. So, I am inclined that she is BBBC. I will try to post a few pics of her for guidence.}

_{Best regards}

[norfolk flyer 208]

SKM,

Yes please that would be most helpfull.

Trevor