Peter Finn
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Posts posted by Peter Finn
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No reason why not.It's not too close and could well be highly desirable...but only if that grandparent in common was a good bird,that you're happy to double up on.The other 6/8 of the pedigree are also important.You won't know unless you know what you are trying to achieve,and then give it a go!After all,cousin pairings are often useful,and they are closer related than one grandparent!It's easier to know what to do,when you know what the birds in the pedigree look like and are carrying genetically...this comes with the experience that you get from knowing the bloodlines involved.Do you know who the breeders behind your birds are?You can ask them about it.Failing that,just look and see if the parent birds are suitable to one another,but which I mean,do they balance out each others qualities?Try to avoid doubling up on ANY fault or problem.If you think that it might be a good pairing,give it a go,unless you have a more appropriate partner for either of the birds.Hope that helps.
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Hi Merv,long time no hear!Did you get my phone message I left on your ansaphone last week?I had a bumpy couple of years with getting my pain control under control,which meant that I was in and out of hospital,and as a result,didn't breed any of the birds that I had.I still have some of them,but they are now 3-4 years old,and unlikely to breed now.I'm managing a lot better these days,and even do some voluntary work for a local bereavement support charity!I was lucky enough to be able to buy two young pairs of birds from Nick Hall this week,and I'm completely inspired by their quality and beauty!I'm going to concentrate on CFW,Normal,LightBack,and also hope to introduce Black Cheek at some point.That's the plan anyway!! So what about you?How are you doing,and what are you doing with your birds?I'm assuming that still have the birds...is that right?Still with the CFWs?It would be good to hear from you anyway.I hope that you are keeping well.Take care,Best Wishes,Peter Finn.
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Hi there,I hope you enjoy the forum.There are plenty of people who will give you advice and make you feel welcome.
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With both parents being Black Cheeks,all the chicks will be Black Cheeks.The next bit is LightBack cock cock X CFW hen...Light Back is dominant over CFW,so if the cock is LightBack split CFW(and many are),you will get Both LightBack cocks and hens,and CFW cocks and hens,in 50:50 ratio.Hope that helps!
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You're very welcome!It's not complicated,but it's not an easy thing to get your head round initially!Best Wishes,Peter.
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I forgot to add,the importance of the outcross,is to add the qualities that you feel are missing in the family which you are line-breeding....any old unrelated bird,just won't do!If you need to improve head features,you need an outcross excelling in this trait,same for fertility,size,etc.Glad it was useful.LINE-Breeding is probably the method of choice for Exhibition breeding.It is how I would prefer to work myself,BUT....this only worth doing,if you're happy with the qualities that your birds have.Nothing set in stone,you need to be able to adapt/change course,if you find that the process is not working as you envisioned!This is the reason for outcrossing.In short,if you have a very good quality bird,I would recommend building a family-line from him/her...always being aware that that quality bird may well carry other qualities,not evident,which will affect healthy,longevity,vigour,etc. I have been breeding many different varieties and species of animal,since a child,and have read many books on genetics over the years.There is no actual prescription,to line-breed in any particular way,as you need to use the best that you breed,and you don't always get what it is that you ideally need.Until you feel confident with line-breeding,or actually have an individual bird WORTH doubling-up on geneticallyI would initially breed best to best(which includes health and vitality,and obviously fertility),and if/when you get nearer your goal of whatever it is that you're after,ie mutation of variety/colour or Exhibition standards,THEN,think about founding family,line-bred from that superior quality bird!This does mean being able to change direction with your breeding plans,if it's not working for you....but patience is required...often the big improvements,take several generations to show themselves.If,you constantly breed the fittest,healthiest and most fertile birds,as well as the other qualities that you're interested in,then,in theory at least,line-breeding is not detrimental.There are examples of top quality diary herds being line-bred for many generations,without outcrossing,because the stock selection was sound in the first place...this is why it is often prudent to keep "duplicates"(I mean siblings in genetic terms)of the best chicks,as that "*******" may not breed,whatever...but lesser quality brother/sisters,will carry very similar genes,and therefore if mated to related birds(ie cousins,whatever),that have similar ancestors with similar qualities behind them,there are good chances that you'll get that "look" again,in the chicks.It does work!But you must know your families,and what you are actually trying to achieve.These things definitely take time...it takes time to get to know what qualities your birds are carrying(this is why getting stock from breeders that know their birds is preferential to birds from sales or pet shops),and it takes time to understand what it is that you're actually doing,and how to achieve it.Please tell me if there's anything I've not explained properly to you.Best Wishes,Peter. -
Glad it was useful.LINE-Breeding is probably the method of choice for Exhibition breeding.It is how I would prefer to work myself,BUT....this only worth doing,if you're happy with the qualities that your birds have.Nothing set in stone,you need to be able to adapt/change course,if you find that the process is not working as you envisioned!This is the reason for outcrossing.In short,if you have a very good quality bird,I would recommend building a family-line from him/her...always being aware that that quality bird may well carry other qualities,not evident,which will affect healthy,longevity,vigour,etc. I have been breeding many different varieties and species of animal,since a child,and have read many books on genetics over the years.There is no actual prescription,to line-breed in any particular way,as you need to use the best that you breed,and you don't always get what it is that you ideally need.Until you feel confident with line-breeding,or actually have an individual bird WORTH doubling-up on geneticallyI would initially breed best to best(which includes health and vitality,and obviously fertility),and if/when you get nearer your goal of whatever it is that you're after,ie mutation of variety/colour or Exhibition standards,THEN,think about founding family,line-bred from that superior quality bird!This does mean being able to change direction with your breeding plans,if it's not working for you....but patience is required...often the big improvements,take several generations to show themselves.If,you constantly breed the fittest,healthiest and most fertile birds,as well as the other qualities that you're interested in,then,in theory at least,line-breeding is not detrimental.There are examples of top quality diary herds being line-bred for many generations,without outcrossing,because the stock selection was sound in the first place...this is why it is often prudent to keep "duplicates"(I mean siblings in genetic terms)of the best chicks,as that "*******" may not breed,whatever...but lesser quality brother/sisters,will carry very similar genes,and therefore if mated to related birds(ie cousins,whatever),that have similar ancestors with similar qualities behind them,there are good chances that you'll get that "look" again,in the chicks.It does work!But you must know your families,and what you are actually trying to achieve.These things definitely take time...it takes time to get to know what qualities your birds are carrying(this is why getting stock from breeders that know their birds is preferential to birds from sales or pet shops),and it takes time to understand what it is that you're actually doing,and how to achieve it.Please tell me if there's anything I've not explained properly to you.Best Wishes,Peter.Thanks Pete, It's a lot more clear now, would you recommend using this type of breeding for zebra finches.Wayne -
Hi Wayne,basically there are several different ways to breed any animal/bird/fish...IN-Breeding,LINE-Breeding,and OUTCROSSING.OUTCROSSING is obviously,where,(in this case,)a bird,from unrelated bloodlines is paired into a family of related birds,either IN-Bred,or LINE-Bred.OK so far?Right,the point of breeding related animals/birds,is that you can double up on some of the good qualities(also works for bad traits/faults,and this is one of the potential problems,and hence,the need for an outcross,to try to cancel-out/correct any of the faults that have become concentrated amongst the genes;which happens when related individuals are repeatedly bred together.There is no point in line-breeding with a family,unless there are good qualities within that individual/family...and basically,Line Breeding is to pair up the best qualities(sometimes it can be a recessive gene,such as a mutation colour),and keep the best youngsters,as even if they are not visually what you are wanting,they will carry that gene from the parent.Often the quality individual will be paired to other quality partners,creating half brother/sisters,cousins,uncles,aunts,all hopefully either showing visually,or carrying,that sort after gene!The mating together of such relatives,is not random,it should be thought out carefully,which birds will be more likely to throw the qualities/colour genes,that you are after.This is a tried and tested technique,used in all forms of domesticated livestock,for hundreds of years actually.The key,is to assess carefully,use the best birds only for breeding,and follow the "look" that you're looking for,each generation...eventually,the birds will have a concentrated gene-pool of qualities,which,by careful selection each generation,you have created....a line bred family!The difference with IN-Breeding,is that the same principles apply,but much closer pairings are done,such as father/daughter,mother/son.In the "old days" of many fancies,there used to be a longevity amongst livestock,enabling grandfather/granddaughter matings and even great grandfather!But,as we,the exhibitor breeds more and more for certain traits for the Showbench,ie size,shape etc(this definitely includes dogs!Even cattle have been bred through line breeding,to either have better meat or produce more milk....standard practice.But,as with all things,rarely if ever,use anything other than strong healthy offspring for breeding,and try not to deliberately double-up on both sides,on the same fault!Health and longevity,vigor and fertility,are all traits inherited,just as much as colour genes and type genes. I hope that I havn't confused you....there isn't a quick way to explain it properly.Any questions,just ask.Good luck!Hi all Can you please explain to me in layman terms how to line breed as i'm totally confused at the moment.ThanksWayne -
Do you know,I was at first too,and when they come into lay,providing your hens get sufficient calcium and Vit D3,virtually daily for about 6 months,and some keep going,and some slow down,laying alternate days.I only have 2 hens left now(and prepare yourself for the cock quail "imposing"himself,mercilessly,on the hens!-mine lives on his own now,next door to the hens,so they could get some rest and grow their feathers back!).At first,I was giving the eggs to neighbours and making eggfood for the birds,but I eventually tried them.I actually prefer them as a hardboiled egg,a mouthful of very delicate creamy flavoured egg,especially if warm!But it did take me many months before I broke through that barrier,and could bear to actually eat one!I hope you enjoy your quail...mine in on the floor of my budgie flights,and are infuriatingly stupid!!They love to dustbath in chinchilla sand,that I buy from the petshop,and put it in a kitten litter-tray or large rectangular-type biscuit tin.They also like bugs from the garden,adore mealworms(which I hand feed)...they are so dim,that I marvel they're not extinct!But they can't help it,and I do like them.Not sure if I'd get them again though...they do poo a lot!Thanks everyone, Guess my family will be getting the eggs. (That's if they lay any) Just cant see myself using them, I wouldn't eat quail's eggs when I was in France so there's little chance of me changing now. Just put me down as a fussy eater
As they are only about 10 weeks old so I'll have a while yet before eggs appear so that gives me time to think about changing my mind but somehow I dont think I will 
(Bet my zebras will be relieved when I tell them about this post 
:lol: ) Emmy -
Hi there,Texan White,is simply a colour variety of Japanese quail....so that's what you have Emmy,Japanese quail....there have recently been other colour variations,with names like Tuxedo and Golden!And Mark's right,the Japanese quail is generally the most common edible quail egg sold by shops for human consumption,so are way too big for a finch of any type to brood!But,they are the most creamy tasting(boil 1-2 minutes....I sometimes treat them like ordinary hen eggs and eat them scrambled,or as an omlette....or boil them and have them with a curry or,more likely,give them to the birds in eggfood!Bit of a waste though,as they really are tasty,and apparently,have the lowest level of cholesterol,of all eggs,thus healthy!Enjoy!
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Hello Mark,welcome aboard and I hope you enjoy the forum.You will find plenty of friendly advice and support on here!
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Congratulations on a couple of nice looking chicks...but what colour is the cock bird?All, Here are a couple of pic's of the BBCFW young + Dad again.Hope you like em!Trevor -
Hi Jeff....I have crested budgerigars,and the gene is dominant,but with budgies,crest-bred is important,in the breeding program.I'm not at all sure about the situation with other birds,such as canaries,but what I can tell you,is that from what I've learned,the crested gene in finches(zebras and Bengalese),is that a Normal crest-bred bird,but without a crest,is of no more use in breeding cresteds,than a Normal that is crest-free!So don't bother about keeping anything simply because it's crest-bred...it will not help in the crest breeding program whatsoever!But good luck with it!A good crest IS beautiful!hi , i've never really bothered with any crested but today i sort of came across one by accident ....i had a trip over the the wirral to pick up a job lot of stuff and amongst them was a really nice crested pied hen ..although a little on the small size the crest is really good .a bit like a gloster canary ...i have some sizeable pieds and pied whites to perhaps pair it up to ... so i was wondering is the crested mutation dominant ,recessive or is it the crest to crest bred scenario similar to canaries ..regards jeff...ps theres also in the mix a semi decent pied cock bird with no crest thats out of the same aviary that might get paired up to it (perhaps taking a chance that its crest bred) -
Hi there Scott,glad you've joined us here....you should get plenty of advice,and some help with the identification of the different mutations that you have.There are so many nowadays,some more attractive than others,but it's all about personal taste really.
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Hello and welcome to the forum,I hope you'll find it helpful and enjoyable.My mum was from Gorseinon,and I still have family in Pontlliw,Loughor,Swansea area...very proud of my Welsh roots!I spent a lot of my childhood running around the Gower...wonderful memories!Just to say hello, a new member to the zebra finch forum, from Llanelli, in south Wales, i'm Wayne Davies (D377), between me and my dad Keri, we keep lightbacks and chestnut flanked whites, Cheers all. -
Hi there,Mark1e has just contacted me,and I think I may be confused about whether Peter Cannan is in this site or not,but he is a very good person to talk to regarding Pieds,and he's definitely on the ZFS site!Sorry if I'm getting confused....no excuse really,as I'm not even that old!Maybe it's the cold!!hi guysThank you for all you comments i will be passing them onto him.Cheers chris -
In my opinion,the best way to improve on size and type,is to outcross to good sized typy Normals ,and/of Fawns (depending on what mutations you're working on).Pair the splits back to mutation birds,keep the best visuals(best splits are also useful,if they are an improvement in quality),and then outcross again,to big,typed birds again.Basically,as far as I'm aware,this is the easiest way to improve stock of any species.Hope that helps!
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Try to contact Peter Cannan,on this forum,and also ZFS website,where he does the ring ordering,and is the General Secretary.He specialises in Pieds and Whites(which are basically Pieds anyway),and is very helpful.Good luck!hi all,I am putting this post on for a friend of mine, has anyone any information on pied zebra's breeding tips what colour best to put with what to achieve good pieds. Anything on showing pieds and the standards. All will be a great help.Cheers allChris -
Hello and welcome!You have some interesting varieties...would love to see some photos of the Black.Cheek Eumos!I am hoping to combine BlackFace Black-Cheek and maybe even Black-Breast...I think that the black and grey combinations are particularly stunning!I'm sure that you'll get as lot from this forum!
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Hello Krissy,welcome to the forum.There are quite a few breeders down in your neck of the woods,I suggest that you contact the Zebra Finch Society....I know that several of the administrators of the Society are living in Plymouth,and there will know of others.Good luck and Best Wishes.Peter.
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Hello Jamie,welcome to the forum,I'm sure that you'll find it both friendly and informative.Whereabouts in the UK are you?Best Wishes,Peter.
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Hello Ken,welcome on-board!I have your book too,and thoroughly enjoyed it...thanks for joining this forum,I'm sure you'll find it interesting,and your knowledge will definitely be helpful to many of us!Best Wishes, Peter
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Hi there,I too had problems getting cuttlefish,so I got some from The Tortoise Shop Limited...can't quite remember what it cost,but not too bad and quality was good,go and check it out...the e-mail address is <janine@the tortoiseshop.com> Give it a go,if you fancy trying it!I think the prices are on line too,I think I ordered 5 x bags of 10 small size,and got a double bag free,and that,I think,was about £35.
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Make sure she's got a supply of calcium and sunlight(Vitamin D3)-Calcivet is what I add to their water,but try cuttlefish,dried/crushed eggshell,and grit.
Triple Black Pic
in All Other Colours
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Hi Trevor,I wonder,how you went about getting the black flanks on the BC?I have a BC Grey cockbird,and he was very black flanked as a youngster,but is now(2 years old),getting more Fawn colour creeping into his flanks.I's appreciate your advise on this matter,if you have any ideas...Best Wishes,Peter.