Peter Finn
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Posts posted by Peter Finn
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Hi Dean,sorry to butt in,but you can get Fawn Penguins just as easily,by using a Fawn outcross...you may even get a Fawn hen that's split for Penguin,from the Penguin hen X Normal cock,as so many of the Normal cocks nowadays,are split for Fawn anyway.In fact,it's probably easier to get hold of quality Fawns than quality Normals,and certainly Normal Cocks split for Fawn.....I'm thinking of doing something similar this year,I'll let you know how it goes!Best Wishes,Peter.Thanks guys, there all sorted now, the hen is with a good sized normal male and the cock is with a massive hen, they are all getting on well, so fingers crossed.Josh you said something about some one in birmingham that breeds them, im thinking about getting another pair, but fawns this time, is there any chance i could have a contact number for him, many thanks dean
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Hi there,I had a similar problem with a cock bird I bought in earlier this year,except with him,it was his upper mandible that was overgrown.I trimmed it level to the lower mandible,and made sure he has access to cuttlefish bone,to keep the bill filed down....so far,so good,and that was several months ago.It's not much that needs to be trimmed off...if you're really worried,get a vet or fellow experienced bird breeder/keeper to do it,but it's not that scary!I was really a bit nervous of doing it,but it was a very minor procedure,not much needed to be trimmed off,as I said,just level it to the other mandible,and the cuttlefish will do the rest!The bird was completely calm about it,and didn't seem to even notice afterwards!Good luck!Hi my young bird has a half inch longer lower bill to upper bill, can anyone advise how I deal with this. Just out of interest would the same solution apply to other birds just in case! Many thanksPeter King -
I'm inclined to agree with you Trevor,theoretically anyway(as I have never bred a finch!!),and I will always endeavour to keep Fawn out of the Normal gene pool,wherever possible;I suspect it might not make that much difference to the Normal BlackBreasts,as they generally have fawn edging to flight feathers anyway,but certainly,my aim is not to deliberately pair any Normal/Fawn combinations!I do hope I can improve the size and type of the Black-Cheeks that I have...they are such an unusual combination,and when added to BF,they will look so striking!Thanks for your input!Dave / Peter, This is just me but i wouldn't put a BC fawn male with a BC grey hen even if he'd got black flanks.I think if you have a BC male with good flanks put him to a grey hen or bring in any BC male on the greyside ie cfw,lightback or you could use BFBC grey combo. My thoughts on this is that it can be bred out with time and patience.Trevor
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No,I don't have this boy's father,he was an old chap(5)and not bred by me anyway.He is a better bird than the other BC cock,and when he arrived,he didn't show this fault.I'm going to use him and his sister anyway,because they're fresh blood and nice birds,and this is what I've got and I make the most of it.I have enough good quality Normals(cocks mainly)to improve the qualities of the various mutations that I have.But the mother of this BC,was a Fawn/BC,that the breeder bought from Stafford.So what her pedigree is I've no idea! I think it would be a good thing to do,to use threads like this....that's the sort of thing where we can learn all from each others experiences.What mutations do you have,or are interested in?Best Wishes.Peter.Hi peterDo you still have the poor coloured cocks father? If not no worries but if you have could you try him to a normal bc hen? Or similar that you poss know heritage from? Be interesting if you, myself and any members on here keep a thread going on heritage maybe? Like what pairings we made, what resulted and see if a common occurence takes place when crossing certain colours etcDave -
Unfortunately,an unknown commodity.No idea what the parentage of the well coloured BCs were,but I do know,that the sire of the cock BC with the blak/red flanks was a correctly marked BC,with black flanks,and his dam was a Fawn,split BC of unknown parentage.This could be a contributing factor,use of the Fawn gene;but there are other unknowns involved with this mutation,such as why some BC hens maintain a full Black-Cheek when adult,and others (sisters in some cases),lose this,ending upwith more of a half-moon coloured BC when mature!This is why it's so interesting for me to discuss ideas with other breeders.Between us,it's possibly we know some of the answers!!Touch wood all the ones I've bred have black flanks. Must have a certain degree of parental heritage? On colour of flanking surely. Peter Would you know the parents and grand parents of the bird you have the flank issues with ? Same question to you trev? Did they have parents which altered melanin pigment or grand parents? I cant comment directly but surely genetic makeup can influence consistency of colour? Cheers Dave -
Hi Trevor,I personally think that the reason for difficulties,colour-wise with the BCCFW,is because CFW is a dilution in general(in a similar way that LightBack is...they sit in the same gene position on the chromosome,which is why a hen cannot be split for this variety,and it just so happens that the LightBack mutation is dominant to CFW.But,it is possible to improve the black tear markings on a CFW,and certainly some CFW cocks can be bred to have darker chest bars and cheek-patches,so,with perseverance,it should be possible to improve the black colour in the BCCFW cock.BFBB gives red flanks primarily,but because both BF is variable and BB is variable,in other variety traits-for example,black breast extension in BF,and Orange eye-patch extension in BB,neither mutation are "cut and dried".In Australia,ther in general seem to have concentrated on improving the BF gene,so it now has resulted in the Black Bodied...apparently,it s the same gene!But they have concentrated on colour not type.In UK,w do have typey birds to add into the gene pool,which is not generally the case in Australia,due to the long-standing import ban.Peter, Appolies for butting in on Daves question, but i've had the same problem with BCCFW's and BFBB they seem to pop out fawn flanks but like you said take time and you can start getting results.Glad to be of help.All the best,Trevor
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all i would say genetic makeup doesnt stop us producing say dark creams from light creams and heavily pied birds from lightly pied birds ect..although you would hope to produce more of the right type of bird by starting with the right type of birdsdaveHi Dave,I think there is a difference between the different variation of shades in a colour,i.e. Fawn,Cream,Silver,and a mutation trait,such as the black flanking that is combined with the Black-Cheek gene.There is an element of variation,in the shade of hair colour in humans,but they would still come under the label of "blond" or "brown".And there is an element of randomness involved,with the Pied gene,where the genes affecting the White and Grey colouring,is switched on and off,during embryonic development-this is certainly the case in a Tortoiseshell cat-they show a vast degree of variation,but in general,there is a mechanism that switches the colouring on and off,in the embryonic phase...obviously genetics can influence,but there is nevertheless an aspect of randomness.There is obviously a linkage between Black-Cheeks and black flanks,otherwise black flanks would have cropped up before in other varieties.I am not necessarily aiming at a Exhibition goal!I want to improve an established mutation....and if ever this variety is to catch the interest of new fanciers,I would personally prefer that variety to be firmly established,as linked with those two features...they are part of the standard.Colour faults are usually more difficult to fix,than type for example.This is the reason I am attempting to fix these characteristics together-they are genetically linked after all!A big typy bird,with black-cheeks,but a chestnut flank,is not going to represent the variety in a "stunning "way,in my opinion.This is what I think anyway.Thanks for your interest in this thread,it's much appreciated,and all discussion is useful!Cheers Peter. -
Thank you Dave,for taking the time to explain it to me...have you bred Black-Cheeks with this issue before?Fingers crossed,eh!Best Wishes,Peter.Pair to well coloured/ birds normals showing more black pigment Only problem is finding such birds not been tainted by black pigment reducing or diluting mutations Only thing I can suggest is line breeding, between the 2 lots. Pair chicks from pr 1 back to the cock and hen 3 & 4 E.g split x bc and bc x split but be selective of the split chicks choosing the ones showing greater extension of the tears as some get enlarged tears and darker marked tail stripes etc Equally you could pair splits from pairs 3&4 same method but choose best coloured and sized chicks, so you keep type and improve colour to cock 1 and hen 2. Only other possibly way to do it would be cross cock 1 to hen 3 so your striving in both aspects good colour in cocks and type size with hen. In the hope they throw good shaped improved colour birds with reasonable size. But does limit you for pairings to increase numbers and more chances of getting what your after. Other thing could be crossing split x split in hope you'll get a visual blackcheek with both increased size and slightly better colour. -
Yeah,I've got it now!Thanks!!The Black-Cheek is such an attractive mutation in my opinion,hopefully I can improve the type and size in the birds that I've got!I'm expecting it to take a while,but maybe,in a few generations,I'll get somewhere!At least I have some good Normal cocks to use in this programme....short of good Normal hens,but that's often the case,regardless of what we're trying to breed!I'm going to try to breed a line as free of Fawn as possible,which will hopefully make things easier!!Thanks for your advise...much appreciated!I did get the first bit,it was the last bit,that I didn't quite understand...it never occurred to me that the markings of the teardrops,could be an indication of flank colouring!!I love this challenge...there's so much to learn!The bird genetics are so different to what I'm used to in mammal genetics!!!Cheers,Peter.Peter, Sorry for confusion, Dave has put it a bit better than me. What i meant to say is the better marked birds thicker tear mark etc.Your best results would be deffo using pairs 1 & 2 and i would probually keep them in a seperate line to pairs 3 & 4.If by pairing split young from pairs 3 & 4 you do get a good BC then use it later on and gradually omit the ones with the lesser black markings.Might be a bit clearer now ? Trevor -
Hi Trevor,thanks for that...so you advise pairing all of them to Normals,I get that...what I'm a bit confused about,is that the offspring from no.3 X Normal,and no.4 X Normal,will still be splits,so I won't be able to see whether the black flanks are coming through....as they'll all be splits!Am I getting it wrong?I'm sorry,I think I'm getting the last bit muddled!Peter, Lets call the BC male with black flanks 1, his sister 2, the other male 3 and his sister 4.In my own oppinion, i would pair no.1 with a grey hen. This would then give you 100% BC's black sided splits.The other bird no.2, i would put to grey as well you would then have 100% split BC's to use.The young from grey x no.2 and no.1 x grey would be ideal to put back together, this then would bring you the black side out. This would give you 50% grey/BC, 25% BC and 25% grey.I would only use the young males from pairing no.3 x grey and grey x no.4, cos you would be certain of seeing the black sided birds.Hope this helps,Trevor -
Hi there,a recessive gene,like BB,can be carried for many years.if a parent carries a recessive gene,50% of its offspring could inherit it even if the other parent doesn't.When I was breeding cats many years ago,I had a recessive gene crop up,from a nephew X aunt mating(the gene being lilac colour),and the nearest relative to these parents that could have passed it on,were over 14 generations back!So in theory,that BB gene could very well have been there a long time!Strangely enough,I've got a BC Pied hen,from Peter Cannan,and got her brother too(but no sign of him even being a carrier!),and I spoke to him about this.He checked back in is records,and they go back to 1983...and no BC!But she is definitely a Black-Cheek,and Peter said that he knew that Alan Dunsford(whose Pied line it was originally),HAD used Black-Cheeks in the Pied line in the beginning!So somewhere along the line,that has been passed on....but there's just as much chance that her brother doesn't carry it!Every generation,there's a 50% chance,that it will be passed on,but there's also a 50% chance,that it will be lost!It really is hit and miss,but it's possible.There are cases of mixed race twins being born in humans,where one twin is white,and the other is mixed race....and nobody knows how many generations ago,there was a black ancestor...there was actually a TV programme about it recently.I went to school with two Scottish kids,both from white Scottish families,with good Scottish names,and in both families,one of the children had afro hair!It turned out that the missing back ancestor in both cases went all the way back to the slave-trade in the West Indies,sometime in the 1700s!!!Genetics is absolutely fascinating!All, Been over to my mates and he's been telling me that he's got an unusual pied, so finally i managed to get around to seeing him. He has shown me this pied and straight away i knew it was a BB grey pied it's in the moulting stage so it looks a bit scruffy 1st one i've ever seen.What we need to know is where has the BB come from, the parents are grey male x grey pied hen (both his birds). The other pied which came out of the nest is a grey pied hen, (is this split BB)?For him to produce a BB pied, they both have to be split BB yes? he dos'nt breed BB, so how long can the BB gene be passed on for?At some stage i will try a get a pic, but it won't be this side of xmas i wouldn't think.Trevor -
Hi there,I was wondering if anyone could give me an answer about a question that I have regarding the flank colouring of Black-Cheek Zebras?I know that the Black-Cheek should have black and white spotted flanks,but some birds(cocks obviously)can have the reddish colouring of the Normal in the flanks;I realise that this is a fault,and was wondering how easy it is to breed this out.I have a decent Black-Cheek cock,with some red/chestnut colouring to his flanks,and a Black-Cheek sister to this bird;I also have a lesser quality Black-Cheek cock,but with the correct Black and white spotting to his flanks,and a Black-Cheek sister of his too.I am planning to outcross these birds to Normals anyway,simply to add size and type,but was wondering whether I should exclude the birds with the faulty flank colouring from the breeding programme,or whether it will correct itself when outcrossed to Normals?Anyone out there any ideas/experience of this with their Black-Cheek breeding? Thanks.
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Yep,fully aware,which is why I have no intention of discussing it on the forum,but thanks for your concern,best wishes,Peter.I would be very careful about just what you post and the naming of company's you dont want a comment to come back and bite you in the *** later.Paul. -
I fully agree with you,but I wasn't limiting the comment to just the condition of the birds.Hi EveryoneIt can all boil down to were palmers and places like them get their birds from none of us when selling birds can guarantee the buyer will not have problems as birds can get a million and one things wrong with them and dispite all the potions and powders im afraid most of the time it can be very hard to tell just what is wrong with a bird if anything,a place like palmers get birds from all over the place and im sure they would be over the moon if all the birds they sold lived till a ripe old age but i dont think anyone could guarantee that,this is why i always like to know who im buying from and keep the birds apart from my own for a period of time,it is far better to go and visit the breeder and see how they care for their birds and how they are kept than buy them blind.Paul. -
I have had some experience with that particular dealer,and although I have no intention of indulging in idle gossip for general consumption,I would be happy to discuss my experiences,should anyone be considering purchases from that source.
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Hi Paul,not quite sure what you mean by precautions,but if you mean what I think you mean,I use surplus boiled water everytime I boil the kettle,and when it's cool,I pour into an old 2 litre plastic milk carton.When I change the birds water,I add a bit of Aviclens,a bit of cyder vinegar, and a bit of Orego-Stim(see bottle...to be honest,I am so used to doing it,a estimate 5 mls per 2 litres-I think its 10 mls on bottle,but with the other stuff I add,I reckon it shouldn't be too strong smelling).I do this because it was recommended with the budgerigars,which I have kept for years.Sometimes they get a dash of Calcivet and/or Vanodine 18(iodine supplement)which I give the budgies,depending on whether I'm approaching the breeding season,regarding calcium levels.I prefer to under medicate,and always keep an eye on any odd eggs laid by the finch hens,because obviously being much smaller,they need less calcium supplement(Calvcivet also has Vitamin D3),and if I think the eggs are too hard shelled,I leave the Calcivet off).I tend to rely on the birds getting most of their calcium from their grit and cuttlefish...in my experience,the hens go crazy for the cuttlefish,when they're approaching egg laying ,ie now!I would not usually do it,except I do it for the budgies anyway,and I do think there is plenty of research to show that a slightly more acidic stomach PH is beneficial in the prevention of a disease in budgerigars called Megabacteria,a sort of yeast bacteria....whether it affects finches,O I don't know,but they are all indigenous to Australia,so I reckon it can't do any harm.There has been controversy regarding whether water should be boiled,bottled,etc for years in the Budgie fraternity...I tend to think that normal tap water is fine,but you do get incidences when things pollute the water supply,and I'd rather just use the surplus boiled kettle water-firstly,I also like to use it for their bathing water,as they will obviously drink that.but also...and it's just as much to do with this,to be honest...I was always told to only boil sufficient water for a cup of tea,and that fresh water everytime made a better cuppa...I'm tea-total...so deserve the best!!!Hence,surplus boiled water.I wouldn't advise anyone to get worried too much about it,after all,birds in the wild drink out of puddles,and certainly some of the Australian watering holes are quite salty in some parts of the country,and the birds drink happily from those!That's what I do,but it's out of habit more than anything,and my birds are fit and healthy,so I stick what works for me!Should I run out of Avicens or cyder vinegar,by having it so diluted,I've not notice the birds notice either,same with Orego-Stim....and I just order/buy some more when's convenient.Hope everyone finds this useful.I was just interested to know what precautions we all take if any with our supple of drinking water to our birds.Paul. -
Hi Shane,your finch was a very old lady,and as a nurse,I have cared for many elderly humans in my career....nothing lives for ever,and Lilo was an elderly bird.She had the energy to fly up and down,as you say,but there comes a time,when the body is too old and it gently begins to shut down,it no longer wants to eat or drink,and it gently drifts into unconsciousness...that'll be what happened with Lilo,and by putting her in her nest,where she was familiar and felt safe,was the kindest last thing that you could have done.If only we looked after our elderly humans with such care,compassion and consideration,the world would be a better place!You give all something to aspire to...you did absolutely everything that you could have done,and thank you for sharing that with the forum....most of us have more than one bird,but we like to think that we care for them as well as we can,I believe we all do,but your little finch was very lucky,in that her flock,consisted of you and her companion next door...the larger flocks are not always able to be quite so attentive,but you certainly set me a good example.Very best wishes,Peter.hello,my name is shane,and l am new to this forum.this is a long message so bear with me.we are a family in kent,with dogs,cats,fish,budgie and up till recently we had a finch that died,very upset about this just need some reassurance from a professional that l did my best with my limited knowledge gained from the internet.we had 2 finchs,one died along time ago,the remaining one paired up with our budgie,kept in seperate cages.we had lilo thats the name of our finch for nearly 8 years,plus ever how old lilo was when we got her.since the start of october acting as normal during long periods,then puffed up and quiet.l know that this is something they do when unwell,and they hide their illness as long as possible to remain as part of aflock,etc.what l did not know until too late,is that they continue with this masking of illness to the end.because lilo was feeding and jumping around at times l thought that lilo was just a bit sick and would get better,although she was not singing or bathing as much.as of the 1st dec,it was obvious to a novice like me that she was ill.l spent hours on internet gathering advice,my only interest was the birds welfare.there were no avian vets near us at all,and the general advice was that a normal vet has no,or very little knowledge on how to treat birds or how much antibiotics to give can do more harm than good although well intentioned,it was not a financial decision.so l took advice off internet and went down home care route and did my best.heated one end of cage to 85 degrees,left the other end at normal temp 70/75 degrees.cage is always clean,plentyof water,varied food,giving it many choices appropriate for a finch.l also put some food and water on the cage floor as well ,and alittle tissue nest that lilo used.3rd december which turned out to be lilo,s last day,lilo seemed fine jumping around and drinking and feeding as usual,then back to peroids of sleep on bottom of cage.this is where l feel l made a mistake and l hope l did not cause any suffering for my little bird.l removed the food and water on the cage floor,because it was getting dirty and as lilo was still feeding and drinking at the higher level,l thought this would be okay.by 10pm that night it was obvious that this little bird was going to die even to me,lilo still was able to fly up away from me when l checked her,so l hope she had access to water until the end.l placed her in her little nest and l woke at 4am sunday and lilo was dead.l am gutted, really gutted and l hope that not having food and water at the lower level on its last day was not a factor in its death.l really thought it had a chance of living because it had been behaving in this manner as l described for such a long time.l just did my best,looking for an understanding arm around the shoulder,thank you for reading this,dont think we will replace lilo,still too upset hope you find time to reply.,hope l did my best SHANE. -
Hi Chris,just had a look at your gallery,and you've got some very decent birds there,even for rare varieties...but I'm not a judge,so don't take my word for it!But I do like them.As for the question of what to pair your BBOB cock to,if you have good BBsplits,that's what I'd pair them to...it'll give BB/OB of both sexes;I have read that OBhens are rather rare,for some reason,and many OB breeders,certainly according to Garrie Landry(USA),do all their OB breeding that way.As for your question about the depth of colouration of your males,I would imagine that the deeper colouration is the most preferable,in exhibition terms,but I've never shown any birds before,so you'd best read the Standards on ZFS site,or speak to one of the guys that regularly do well with their Normals,such as Dave Huntington,but there are definitely others on this forum,I just don't know them because I don't show and am new myself!Just make sure though,that it's not a LightBack!They are paler orange markings.This forum is crammed with knowledgeable people,that are very willing to give advice...I've learned lots,simply by reading the e-mails!Peter.hi all, i have 2 exhibition male finchs both of a very good size the only thing i can tell is that the one males marking are very dark orange and the others are of i lighter orange. Can any tell me why this is. Also what colour do they look for on the bench the lighter colour os darker.Cheers chris -
Hi,rare variety mutations aside,the simple use of the mainstream colours,Fawn and CFW,will reduce the number of Normal coloured hens produced by a Normal Grey cock...if he is split for both these sex-linked colours,only 1 in 3 of his daughters will be Normal....the colour of his sons will depend on the mothers colouring.It's almost a self perpetuating situation,as in the same way that using Normals to improve the colouring in CFWs will work well,it also results in more Normal cocks split for CFW....and so it goes on.Ricky Thomas,who recently suffered the tragedy of his stud catching fire,although I don't know him,I do know he was concentrating on breeding a line of as pure Normal as possible...and although I cannot speak for him,I wouldn't be at all surprised if these sex-linked colours were still cropping up,many generations later!I have experienced a recessive gene(not quite the same as a sex-linked one,but similar,in that it's not dominant)cropping-up,totally unexpected,after 14 generations,in cat breeding,when a nephew/niece mating was done!Dave, I've been trying to get normal hens for months now and thay seem to be (pardon the pun) like hens teeth I cant get any, the ones I can get are just to expensive for me. just wonderd if you new why this is mate?cheerstam.. -
Sorry to hear that...if it's any consolation,this sort of thing always seems to happen to the best ones...it is the case with many species,I've bred Persian cats and pedigree guinea-pigs over the years,and this does seem to happen.But,the important thing to remember,is that the genes to produce that lovely little chick,are still in the parents,and just because it happened once,doesn't mean it'll happen again.Even if you don't get something as good next time,it is very valuable as breeding stock,so don't despair,repeat the pairing when the parents are ready,and don't be in a hurry to sell off the chicks,even if they are not as good as this one you've just lost!There's every chance that those quality genes will resurface...Good Luck!Peter.Dead -
A lovely little chick,presumably hen,very promising with a little beak and head features...definitely one to be proud of...hope she matures to her potential,and she has an equally good brother for show partner!Well done and good luck with her,she's beautiful!Peter.
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Hi,I joined the ZFS first,as I HAVE ALWAYS KEPT ANIMALS AND,(OOPS)and have always joined the relevant clubs and societies,in order to support the hobby.I can't remember how I found about about the forum,most probably word of mouth!I'd like to add,I'm thoroughly enjoy the forum,and visit it most days,at least once!