Dimitri

Hi Kerry looks like a fawn hybrid zebra x firetail, can you see a pinkish tinge in the tail bars? ciao Dimitri

Hi Trev, sorry mate but looks like a melanistic normal grey to me, not bf. It could be also a melanistic bf, but in such a case it would be a poor example of bf since the belly should be black, not white. I think I see some little white feathers in the face (but I can't understand if it is white feathers or dust) if it be so, it's definitely not bf. Flanks completely devoid of spots is also sign of melanism. Such melanistic birds usually turn "normal" within a moult or two. ciao Dimitri

Hi Trev, you have been clear enough, perhaps I have been not, let my try to explain better: your mating Cr split penguin x split penguin gives,in theory, 1 crested penguin out of 8 chicks. This is a rather low percentage, you could need no less then two full clutches to get only one "good" chick. Consider also that the ng chicks (both crested and not crested) produced from this mating could be split for penguin as well as they could not, so you could be in the need to use them in the following season to produce more crested penguins but you won't know which one is split and which one is not... what will you do? The mating proposed by Jeff Cr split penguin x penguin gives, again in theory, 1 crested penguin out of 4 chicks, that's to say you have good chance to hit the target already within the first clutch. And eventually, all the ng chicks produced (both crested and not crested) will be sure split for penguin, so if you need some split penguin to produce more crested penguins (or for example, one split parent could die) you can chose any of them and be sure of the results. I like to know perfectly what I have in my cages and breeding "possibly split" x "possibly split" is always a waste of room and time. That's why the best plan is first year Crested x penguin and second year Crested split penguin x penguin. When dealing with recessive mutation, split x split is the "last chance" mating, when only split birds are available, split x full is much better. Just my 2 cents. Of course, Dean could also pair a crested split penguin x split penguin and get 3 crested penguins chicks already in the first clutch... who can tell? That's the fun side of the hobby all the best to you too ciao Dimitri

Hi Dean, I think the most suitable mating has been indicated above by Jugglerjeff. Jeff's plan could give you a crested penguin in one or two rounds (1/4) and you will know the exact genetics of each offspring, while Trev's plan could give you a crested penguin after ages (1/8) and the genetics of all the ng chicks will be unknown until you "test" them with a penguin partner. ciao Dimitri

Hi skm as Trevor said, splits BB cocks can show oval shaped flank spots, then sometimes also the cheek patch can be slightly enlarged, in both sexes the tail blocks can be somewhat "irregular" and the tear marks can be thinner than normal. As regards split BC, the tear mark can run a bit into the cheek area, you can see it on efinch too in the bc section. But keep in mind that sometimes split are detectable and sometimes they are not. ciao Dimar

Here is a picture I took some years ago, these were not show type birds, which are more strongly marked like the one posted above by Sam, but the difference is quite visible. ciao Dimitri

Yes it's a pity, it was a nice hot spot. I don't know if I can put a link here, but if you go to the Italian zf club homepage you can find several photogalleries with good pics of continental (Italian) birds. ciao Dimitri

Hi Paul here is a young grey ccfw, just fledged compared to a regular cfw fledgeling, note the creamy overall colour, brown tear mark, horn coloured beak, the tail coverts are the same colour as the tear mark. After moult the tear marks and tail coverts darken to black or almost black. ciao Dimitri

Hi Kerry CFW fawn chicks usually don't have horn coloured beaks, that description looks like a continental cfw hen. If it be so, the cock would be a CFW split CCFW and would be able to produce CFW and CCFW daughters. What about the tail coverts of the creamy chick? Are they washed out like in cfw, or evenly darker than usual? cheers Dimitri

Hi Paul, I can't say you are wrong, random genetic events could give birth to a totally black, half black/half orange, or totally striped zf, immagination can run free here. However, if and when a black flanked BF would arise, it will be no more a BF, but rather a new mutation. Of course anything might happen in the future, who knows, but sadly we can't say for sure if, when, where and how it could happen. I guess (am I wrong?) Trevor was trying to understand which kind of birds should be best paired up in order to produce a black flanked BF, and not trying to understand if a black flanked BF could ever appear by chance in the next 50 years or so. That's why my answer is, for what we know today, "genetically" speaking, there's no mating scheme or selection trick to produce a black flanked BF. some pics from past seasons, Paul perhaps you still remember some of these on the (dead) international forum BFBC cock These BFs are all split BC, see the flanks... BF/BC hen and the mossst blackessst BFBC on earth ciao Dimitri

Hi Paul, the reverse is not possible, because they are different mutations with different actions. BCs with chestnut flanks are just defective, pheomelanine is converted into eumelanine but in poor specimens it often works only partially, the action of the mutation must be supported and enhanced through selection. The chestnut flank of a blackface can't become black neither with the aid of selection, since BF gene doesn't do that conversion, pheomelanine markings remain untouched just like normals. ciao Dimitri

Wow 100% is great! never had hoped for such an excellent result ciao Dimitri

Hi Trev I'm not sure I got it right, you want to breed a BF with black flanks? (without BC involved?) BC turns pheomelanine markings (orange/chestnut) into eumelanine (black), and infacts BCs have black cheek patches and black flanks. BF instead has a different action, since it only adds black eumelanine in the lores and in the belly, but doesn't affect at all the pheomelanine in the markings. So you can get a black flanked zebra only if BC is involved (and the cheeks will be black as well). ciao Dimitri

so we have the solution here: the father is definitely grey split lightback (and split bb) and the mother is not simply greycheek, but greycheek lightback indeed (and split bb as well) therefore the pictured bird can only be lightback greycheek bb, as already said by Paul above. ciao Dimitri

Hi Jeff you are right, basically an all white bird with red cheeks and flanks, hens are all white. They were "in fashion" twenty years ago here in Italy, but nowadays have been forgotten because of the difficulty to obtain a clear body with strong orange markings. There were three types of red flanked: penguin+cfw, cfw+isabel and penguin+isabel. The last one was said to be the best of the three, I have bred years ago only penguinxcfw, the body was clear white but the markings were washed out as well. No worth (to me). ciao Dimitri